Is DHTML going to survive? [Archive]

manswide

01.06.2001, 12:14

I mean, with the now models and stuff it will be easier to make full-compliant (or however you spell it) code, but still alot of peaple has got the flash and shockwave plug-ins, and since hardly anyone's using modem in a few years I am afraid there'll be no point using DHTML anymore... What do you think?

Dan

01.06.2001, 15:14

I think DHTML is only just coming into it's own. Flash is all very well for experimental and arty type sites, or a sort of promo for a movie etc. but it doesn't really fit well with the rest of the web. DHTML (if you can get it to work) is a nice, light weight way of providing extra interactivity into an otherwise static medium. It is easy to combine it's power with the output from databases, and if done well can degrade well to old browsers (i.e. it won't work, but won't cause errors - and there is an alterative method of navigation).

I think that you'll see DHTML exists alongside Flash and maybe Flash will be incorperated into the umbrella of DHTML (CSS & Javascript).
It would be hard to see the Guardian[/url:5zbtuxptyd] or an e-commerse site using Flash.

My 2-cents (as they say)!

-------------------------
Dan
[url]www.pupius.net (http://www.guardian.com)
-------------------------

manswide

01.06.2001, 23:45

Well, Dan, I certainly hope you're right. I don't really know very mutch about shockwave and flash, but I do know quite alot about DHTML, and I've noticed that you have to check everything in at least three platforms (mac, windows NT and windows 98), and in at least three browsers (ie4x,ie5x,ne4x). That makes 9 different versions of every script (of course not Every script, but it could mean it). Ok, so I have got lots of cross-browser-cross-platform objects to use, but still it's alot work. I just don't feel that I trust dhtml enough. I don't even trust ordinary HTML. I just don't know...

Royan

02.06.2001, 04:53

You DHTML doesn’t mean only animation on your site. I think you won’t object if I say that it’s much easier to use server through DHTML and not Flash. Actually I’ve seen only one really huge site using Flash to contact with server (nikefootball.com). But I agree that the difference between platforms and browsers is a good reason to use Flash but only for interaction.

greydaddy

02.06.2001, 17:28

It is all very interesting to hear how dhtml will fit into the future, but, for quick, usefull and although sometimes time taking to write many pleasing and friendly results can be obtained.
I have been asked a few times to produce 'Flash' intro's as seen on many pages, I believe that if a site is to be 'Flash orientated' the complete site should be so.
XML uses css2 favourably, the new language of data handling and the future, so yes! I believe dhtml will be a long time dieing, many sites today are still among the best with DHTML incorporated within them.

Brian Nickel

02.06.2001, 17:40

As markup is becoming more and more powerful, and more and more standards are being placed, we will see that Flash will either have to support XML, which would add a new efficiency level, or it will fade into the background as an appearance enhancement tool.
There are already several languages that are more powerful than flash. For example SVG. SVG, or Scalable Vector Graphics, could become the future of DHTML. It is vector based, supports EMCAScript (with DOM specs), and has CSS2 Specifications. I would like to see it become a standard.
As for the DHTML we are using with HTML4.x, I think HTML manipulation will hold up for years to come (Though it will be XHTML).

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getName:function(){return 'Brian Nickel';},
getEmail:function(){return '[url:n27gte20os]scriptguru@f2s.com[/url:n27gte20os]';},
getURL:function(){return '[url:n27gte20os]http://www.scriptguru.f2s.com[/url:n27gte20os]';}
};

Dan

02.06.2001, 17:42

Flash already supports an XML socket, pretty powerful actually but barely anyone is using it yet.

-------------------------
Dan
www.pupius.net
-------------------------

Brian Nickel

02.06.2001, 17:50

Cool. Maybe flash will have a chance.

Xanth

02.06.2001, 17:54

It's got more than a chance.. It's really one of the biggest tools on the web.. One Flash board is larger than the combined DHTML boards I've been to..

Actually alot of people are using XML in flash now and that number is also growing rapidly.

xanth = new Object();
xanth.name = "Mike";
xanth.mail = "[url:p38vi2akay]belgedin@earthlink.net[/url:p38vi2akay]";
xanth.age = 16;


Edited by - Xanth on 06/02/2001 16:56:32

Icestorm

02.06.2001, 17:59

I've also seen actionscript that is simply amazing, I haven't seen the actual code, but I think it's far more advanced than most dhtml. Here's just an example, not the most complex I've seen though: http://www.voxangelica.net/

I propose: actionscript beats the snot out of dhtml!

Hmmm.. that's actually not the best way of putting it, but maybe you catch my drift...

---------------------
Icestorm
[url="http://e-syed.net/skriptlab/"]SKRIPTLAB v2[/url:dqod1o8a9y]
---------------------

Edited by - icestorm on 06/02/2001 17:03:37

Xanth

02.06.2001, 18:15

Yup.. action script is more lenient in it's usage because everything in flash is vectorized so you can achieve more impressive effects.. however it's not just the actionscript but the coders there are some brilliant minds that use flash.. The thing that makes those flash experiments really cool is the Math that goes into them..

www.yugop.com // This is the first person to do anything cool with ActionScript.

www.cleoag.com // this one just has alot of really awesome math and other experiments.

xanth = new Object();
xanth.name = "Mike";
xanth.mail = "[url:7t9sfexxcc]belgedin@earthlink.net[/url:7t9sfexxcc]";
xanth.age = 16;


Edited by - Xanth on 06/02/2001 17:31:11

dayve

02.06.2001, 20:19

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Flash already supports an XML socket, pretty powerful actually but barely anyone is using it yet.

-------------------------
Dan
www.pupius.net
-------------------------
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I was wondering if someone would bring up XML. all I can say is look out everyone, Microsoft is trying to take over yet again...

I am concerned about the future of DHTML myself. that is why I stick mainly to connectivity programming. Oracle, SQL7, Informix...hell even Access, they are not going away, in fact they are controlling more of the internet than you probably could imagine.

everything is databases these days...you are just a blob field in someones database somewhere!!

dayve

<center>
Nine Inch Nails Forum
http://www.nineinchnailz.com/forum
</center>

Dan

02.06.2001, 20:35

Yeah, I've done quite a bit of database programming (that's where I started off, I've only been doing DHTML since about last October). Web sites need to have dynamic content, and the only feasible way to do that on a large scale is with databases - but I still think that DHTML is a very good way to add extra interactivity to generated pages.

It's just not as fun :) but it is pretty satisfying when you get it working!

-------------------------
Dan
www.pupius.net
-------------------------

Xanth

02.06.2001, 20:47

I'm just glad I do all of this for a hobby.. I want to be a Chiropractor <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> I still wanna learn some backend stuff though looks kinda fun really.

xanth = new Object();
xanth.name = "Mike";
xanth.mail = "[url:eumnm32kze]belgedin@earthlink.net[/url:eumnm32kze]";
xanth.age = 16;

Brian Nickel

02.06.2001, 21:58

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>everything is databases these days...you are just a blob field in someones database somewhere!!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I don't know about you, but I'm an int(11) and a varchar(30).

This brings up another issue, which has more future? XML or a Query language?

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getURL:function(){return '[url:x3hbde0pnq]http://www.scriptguru.f2s.com[/url:x3hbde0pnq]';}
};

Dan

03.06.2001, 07:34

XML is good for storing and sharing semi-structured data, it's just a bit of a nightmare to type it all in if you have large quantities of data, so what we are seeing in real applications is XML files being generated from databases or a specialist front end that can manipulate the XML files.

-------------------------
Dan
www.pupius.net
-------------------------

Rod

04.06.2001, 05:23

hi all!

hhmmm. flash vs. dhtml.

dhtml - navigation, special document effects, etc....

flash - good with animation

the only advantage i think flash has is smooth animation. i just saw a replay on the Discovery channel about Macromedia and other companies growing on the net.

AGREE?
Just bought a Flash 5 with ActionScript book.

Rad
[url="http://www.e-syed.net/viewsrc/"]viewsrc[/url:2njoa7qcqq]

Xanth

04.06.2001, 15:51

Flash isn't just Animation anymore. Flash AS is nearly identical to JavaScript with the same power and in a completely vectorized environment It can do just about everything DHTML can and in some cases do it better. you can use XML in it now and you grab stuff from DataBases all kinds of things.

xanth = new Object();
xanth.name = "Mike";
xanth.mail = "[url:qnt8z7m0wa]belgedin@earthlink.net[/url:qnt8z7m0wa]";
xanth.age = 16;

Icestorm

04.06.2001, 16:08

xanth: hmmm yes and you don't need to write for different OS's and browsers :)

Also, I bet that if you did this site in flash, which is possible, it would not be a much heavier download either... what makes flash heavier than dhtml is addition of graphics and sounds... if you don't add that stuff, dhtml and flash should weight the same.

---------------------
Icestorm
[url="http://e-syed.net/skriptlab/"]SKRIPTLAB v2[/url:z84lusew2n]
---------------------

Xanth

04.06.2001, 16:56

Yup, pretty much everything works cross browser/platform in Flash and if you make your "graphics" inside of flash you'll usually get a fairly small file size..

xanth = new Object();
xanth.name = "Mike";
xanth.mail = "[url:l3a6rlbhx3]belgedin@earthlink.net[/url:l3a6rlbhx3]";
xanth.age = 16;

Brian Nickel

07.06.2001, 01:27

I've started planning my future as a dSVG scripter. Using SVG, CSS2, DOM, and XPointer (extention of XLink) you can do everything you can do in flash. And it is available as a plug in from Adobe. :):) *is dreaming about a SVG based web site*

ScriptGuru={
getName:function(){return 'Brian Nickel';},
getEmail:function(){return '[url:9oq2wq9jz5]scriptguru@f2s.com[/url:9oq2wq9jz5]';},
getURL:function(){return '[url:9oq2wq9jz5]http://www.scriptguru.f2s.com[/url:9oq2wq9jz5]';}
};

Xanth

07.06.2001, 14:53

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Yes but all this is possible with the vector capability with IE for example, Id still rather have a scripting apporach to it all than allowing a code-illiterate person to be able to create this stuff. But hey, from their point of view its a gift from god lol.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I guess you misunderstood.. The awesome things you see in flash are ALL code and are just as difficult to make as a DHTML script.

Brian,

What is SVG and XPointer??

xanth = new Object();
xanth.name = "Mike";
xanth.mail = "[url:tybxk7py3r]belgedin@earthlink.net[/url:tybxk7py3r]";
xanth.age = 16;


Edited by - Xanth on 06/07/2001 13:54:54

Icestorm

07.06.2001, 15:05

in case anyone is wondering, i've found a yummie piece of actionscript in a random praystation fla...
<pre id=code>
onClipEvent(load){
numBolas=20
for(i=2;i<=numBolas;i++){
bola1.duplicateMovieClip("bola"+i,i)
}
for(i=1;i<=numBolas;i++){
este=this["bola"+i]
este.radio=Random(50)+20
este.anguloInc=(Random(50)+20) /10
este.angulo=360/numBolas
este.r=(Random(2)+2)/100
este.f=(Random(5)+4)/10
}
}
onClipEvent(enterFrame){
for(i=1;i<=numBolas;i++){
este=this["bola"+i]
este.anguloRadian=este.angulo/(180/Math.PI)
este.xFinal=(este.radio*Math.cos(este.anguloRadian ))+cuadro._x
este.yFinal=(este.radio*Math.sin(este.anguloRadian ))+cuadro._y
este.xVel=este.xVel*este.f+(este.xFinal-este._x)*este.r
este.yVel=este.yVel*este.f+(este.yFinal-este._y)*este.r
este._x+=este.xVel
este._y+=este.yVel
este.angulo+=este.anguloInc
}
}
</pre id=code>

Can you see what it does?
Should I look for some more?

-----
[url="http://e-syed.net/skriptlab/"]v2[/url:mouxtli64g]
-----

Xanth

07.06.2001, 15:11

Hehe Thos Bola type effects are cool =D

xanth = new Object();
xanth.name = "Mike";
xanth.mail = "[url:9b5yc1pljo]belgedin@earthlink.net[/url:9b5yc1pljo]";
xanth.age = 16;

Brian Nickel

07.06.2001, 18:06

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>What is SVG and XPointer??<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
SVG=Scalable Vector Graphics (FlashML :))
Documentation: [url:pcn1a88170]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Overview.htm8[/url:pcn1a88170]
Plug-in: [url:pcn1a88170]http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/main.html[/url:pcn1a88170]
Examples: [url:pcn1a88170]http://www.adobe.com/svg/demos/main.html[/url:pcn1a88170]
Large Scale Usage: [url:pcn1a88170]http://www.environnement.gouv.fr/centre/Carte_interactive/SVG/carte_de_consultation.htm[/url:pcn1a88170]

XPointer: XLink pointer for individual portions of a document (like Anchors but better).
EG: somesite.com/page.html#root().child(3,P) links to the page at the third paragraph.
somesite.com/page.html|root().child(3,P) just loads the third paragraph, nothing else. You can see how this will be useful.

I love XML.

By the way, XSL is great because it is a scripting language/markup language hybrid!

ScriptGuru={
getName:function(){return 'Brian Nickel';},
getEmail:function(){return '[url:pcn1a88170]scriptguru@f2s.com[/url:pcn1a88170]';},
getURL:function(){return '[url:pcn1a88170]http://www.scriptguru.f2s.com[/url:pcn1a88170]';}
};
Oh, by the way, after you get the SVG plug-in, go to [url:pcn1a88170]http://www.battlebots.com/[/url:pcn1a88170] That is the coolest SVG you can get.

Edited by - ScriptGuru on 06/07/2001 17:33:41

Xanth

07.06.2001, 19:47

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>SVG=Scalable Vector Graphics (FlashML )
Documentation: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Overview.htm8
Plug-in: http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/main.html
Examples: http://www.adobe.com/svg/demos/main.html
Large Scale Usage: http://www.environnement.gouv.fr/centre/Carte_interactive/SVG/carte_de_consultation.htm

XPointer: XLink pointer for individual portions of a document (like Anchors but better).
EG: somesite.com/page.html#root().child(3,P) links to the page at the third paragraph.
somesite.com/page.html|root().child(3,P) just loads the third paragraph, nothing else. You can see how this will be useful.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Ohh man, I'm droolin. <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

So how well does it work with DHTML and stuff?? seems kind of like flash to me.

xanth = new Object();
xanth.name = "Mike";
xanth.mail = "[url:rsxmpr88xa]belgedin@earthlink.net[/url:rsxmpr88xa]";
xanth.age = 16;

Brian Nickel

07.06.2001, 22:33

It doesn't mix with DHTML yet, being a plug-in. But it does allow for DSVG. The way I look at it, its DHTML with vectors, and its always had a DOM so you don't have to worry about Cross-Browser. (It also can load fonts via @font-face and can load music.)

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getName:function(){return 'Brian Nickel';},
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getURL:function(){return '[url:n6ms5zstkc]http://www.scriptguru.f2s.com[/url:n6ms5zstkc]';}
};

Xanth

07.06.2001, 22:58

Sounds pretty cool seems kinda like a wanna be flash right now though.. I'll have to do some more reading about it before I make any decisions though..

xanth = new Object();
xanth.name = "Mike";
xanth.mail = "[url:h0p6azchzi]belgedin@earthlink.net[/url:h0p6azchzi]";
xanth.age = 16;

aboodman

10.06.2001, 05:57

considering the flash/dhtml debate, one thing to consider is that flash does not handle large amounts of data very well for a number of reasons. for starters text has to be translated into vectors and manipulated as vectors on the fly - this makes it really slllooowww... try making a draggable movie clip with 50% alpha and dragging it over some text and you'll see what i mean. also, flash cannot reflow - it actually has no concept of flow, so all your layouts are going to be static. That makes it really hard considering the vast array of screen resolutions around right now.

finally, i've messed around w/ the xml socket - and although a cool trinket, it's primitive compared to the real w3c xml dom and the xml http object in IE5. it does not have named access to children elements (you have to iterate and "look" for them), and you can't do even simple queries. further, the early versions of the swf player had a bug in the xml parsing code that came up with tons of extra null nodes - making it even harder to deal with.

i guess i'm just saying that although flash is very powerful, very standard, and getting more so on both fronts - it still has some glaring problems which hold it back from competely taking over.

my .02

// aaron
// www.youngpup.net